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thinkenergy looks at the energy of tomorrow, today. Every two weeks we’ll speak with game-changing experts to bring you the latest on the rapidly evolving energy landscape, innovative technologies, eco-conscious efforts, and more. Join Hydro Ottawa’s Dan Séguin and Rebecca Schwartz as they demystify and dive deep into some of the most prominent topics in the energy industry.

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Feb 1, 2021

Nuclear is a word with numerous applications that mean wildly different things: nuclear family, nuclear bomb, nuclear war. In this episode, we chat about nuclear energy with Matthew Mairinger - a technical engineer at Ontario Power Generation and the Canadian Operating Officer at The North American Young Generation in Nuclear - and debunk some of the most common myths associated with it. Is it safe? What impact does it have on the environment? Is radiation something to be concerned about? Tune in to hear why there’s nothing forced about Matthew’s positivity over the future of nuclear energy.


Related Content & Links: 

- Matthew Mairinger 
Twitter: @Mattwithchips

- The North American Young Generation in Nuclear 
Twitter: @NA_YGN



Dan Seguin  00:02

Hey, everyone, welcome back to another episode of the ThinkEnergy podcast. Nuclear is a word with numerous applications that mean wildly different things, nuclear family, nuclear bomb, nuclear war, and the Springfield nuclear power plant where someone like Homer Simpson seems to be the sole control room operator "d'oh". Nothing scary about that! When most people think of clean energy, they immediately conjure up images of solar panels, wind turbines, and hydro power. But how many of you also thought of nuclear reactors? The truth is nuclear power is often left out of the Clean Energy conversation despite it being the second largest source of low carbon electricity in the world. In fact, according to the American Nuclear Society, the third most popular myth about nuclear energy is that it's bad for the environment. But the reality is that nuclear reactors don't emit greenhouse gases. And over their lifetime, they have comparable emissions to wind and solar. Here in Canada, nuclear plants have been producing electricity since the early 1960s. And with 19 nuclear power reactors, mostly in Ontario, nuclear energy produces about 15% of the country's electricity. That's 13.5 gigawatts of electrical power capacity. Despite producing massive amounts of carbon free power, nuclear energy also produces more electricity on less land than any other clean air source. A typical 1000 megawatt nuclear facility will occupy approximately only one square mile for its operations. Recent estimates of the Canadian nuclear industry reveal that it employs approximately 30,000 people and creates another 30,000 indirect jobs through contracting. It also generates revenues of $6.6 billion and contributes $1.5 billion in federal and provincial taxes. So here's today's big question. What does the future of nuclear energy look like for the next generation? And how is Canada leading the way internationally with some exciting developments in nuclear technology? To help us better understand the role nuclear plays in Canada and the talented people behind the scenes, we have with us today, a nuclear engineer from the Ontario Power Generation, and the Canadian Operating Officer for the nonprofit organization, North American Young Generation in nuclear. I'm very pleased to have Matthew Mairinger on our show. Welcome, Matthew, could you maybe start by telling us a bit about yourself and what attracted you to the career in nuclear energy?


Matthew Mairinger  04:13

I guess I really got interested in nuclear in high school. It was just an essay that we got to do about any topic in science. I started looking into nuclear power. And I was just like, Wow, this is amazing the energy density, how it can fight climate change the medical isotopes we get from it so that really got me hooked. And from there, I went to University of Ontario Institute of Technology, where I studied nuclear engineering. I've been working full time at Ontario Power Generation at both the Darlington and Pickering nuclear stations ever since. And on the side I'm also a board of director with North American Young Generation Nuclear, Canadian Nuclear Association with the International Youth nuclear Congress. I'm also on the Energy Council of Canada as a young professional member. So lots of things, but it's all focused around energy and specifically nuclear,


Dan Seguin  05:09

Generally speaking, what important role does nuclear energy play in Canada? In your opinion? Why should Canada and other countries around the world continue investing in nuclear energy?


Matthew Mairinger  05:22

Yeah, so nuclear plays a huge role in Canada, and especially for Ontario. So nuclear technology, each year displaces 80 million tons of CO2 emissions, which is around 17 million cars. Also 70% of the world's supply of cobalt 60, which is used for cancer treatment, to sterilize medical equipment, to sterilize food and to do inspection of materials comes from Canada as well. So it's a huge portion of the world's cobalt 60. In terms of jobs and the economy, it contributes $17 billion to Canada's economy each year. And it has 76,000 direct and indirect jobs. So it's a lot of work behind the scenes. And it's a huge backbone of well paying stable jobs here in Canada. So why should other countries around the world continue investing? So really, it's to do with uranium and nuclear itself. So uranium 235, which is one of the isotopes that we use for nuclear fission, contains two to 3 million times the energy equivalent of oil or coal, so you're just getting so much more bang for your buck for that. And that means that it can use a much smaller land footprint, use less materials and produce less waste, it also has a huge capacity factor. So if you're looking at what's going to produce stable, dependable energy, it's really nuclear, which is over 90% capacity factor. So if we're looking to electrify the grid, we're looking to charge electric cars overnight. If we're looking to run hospitals reliably, you know, it's the nuclear facilities that have a 60 to 80 year lifespan, high dependability, high capacity factor. And if we look at the countries that have been able to decarbonize the fastest, so Sweden, France, United Arab Emirates, they've actually used nuclear to get there. So contrary to what people may think that nuclear takes a long time to build, to get going. It's really quick at decarbonizing countries.


Dan Seguin  07:30

Okay, Matthew, you're on the board of directors for the nonprofit organization, North American, young generation in nuclear. What is your organization's mandate? And what is it that you hope to provide the future nuclear enthusiasts and professionals like yourself?


Matthew Mairinger  07:50

Yes, so there's 50 young generation and nuclear organizations around the world. Typically, either countries or big organizations will have their own youth nonprofit group for NAYGN. It's all across North America. And really, we provide opportunities for young generation of nuclear enthusiasts to develop leadership and professional skills, create lifelong connections, engage and inform the public and inspire today's nuclear technology professionals to meet the challenges of the 21st century. So, so mouthful, really, we're trying to develop leaders to energize the future of nuclear. And we do that through professional development. So we put on facility tours, where members get to go see how the fuel is made, or what a research reactor looks like. We do work with Toastmasters. So to increase your public speaking abilities, we do community service, so we go out, we work with Habitat for Humanity, we work with other groups in the communities to give back as well. So we give them an avenue to give back to the community and also to put a positive spin on nuclear, but also young people as well. You know, there's this, this misconception that millennials are lazy, and we're this not the best type of group out there. So we're trying to fix that. We also do networking events. So again, just an avenue to get to know other people in the industry. So we'll do Blue Jays games, we'll go to sporting events. And we work on public information as well.


Dan Seguin  09:24

Maybe you can expand now on how your organization is working to be a source of science based information about applications of nuclear science and technology for use by the media, policymakers and the general public.


Matthew Mairinger  09:42

Yeah, so that's a huge backbone. So one of our board of directors is the public information officer. And so under that board seat, there's actually student education and government relations. So two separate committees that have a big focus for any NAYGN. So for student education, Each year we run a drawing contest. So we go to elementary schools, we have a different topic. So we'll talk to them about nuclear. And we'll get them engaged thinking about it. At high schools, we have an essay contest again. So just trying to make nuclear not a secret, not this unknown. You know, we're going to schools, we're talking about it. We actually developed our own children's books a couple years ago. So the first one is Marie's Electric adventure. And the second one, the sequel is George's energy adventure. So we bring that to schools, we do school readings. And really what we're trying to do is we're trying to talk about nuclear, in a friendly tone, we're trying to expose students at a younger age to think about it as a career to promote it as a stem opportunity as well. So just trying to debunk some of the myths out there, get them interested at an early age, for government relations, we do postcard push days. So we encourage our members to send postcards to Washington and Ottawa, we do rallies, we do stand up for nuclear, we participate in Clean Energy Ministerial United Nations Climate conferences, so really trying to advocate for nuclear from a nonprofit youth organization. So it's a little bit different than having company representatives there that we are in our free time, volunteers advocating for climate change.


Dan Seguin  11:27

Okay, Matthew, your organization recently signed a memorandum of understanding with electricity, Human Resources Canada. What can you tell us about the importance of this collaboration?


Matthew Mairinger  11:40

Yeah, being a youth nonprofit organization, we try to work with other organizations out there, we're not trying to create everything from scratch. So EHRC really has a huge network of not just nuclear groups, but clean energy groups, as well. So a lot of expertise out there that we could tap into. And really what it is, is they have a great focus for diversity. And they have a great focus for the young generation. So they've done specific surveys about young people across Canada in the electricity sector. So it made a lot of sense for us to share what we're doing with them. And then also for us to learn about what they're doing in the industry as well.


Dan Seguin  12:23

Now, your organization has also been an advocate and champion for diversity and inclusion within the nuclear sector. Can you maybe tell us about what it means to you and what it means to the nuclear industry.


Matthew Mairinger  12:41

So I think it was really, especially during COVID, and the events that happened around the world last year, that really brought diversity and inclusion to the forefront. And we saw a lot of the statements that were made across the electricity sector across other companies as well. And we want to make sure that when we said something as a board that we made it part of our long term strategic initiatives, it wasn't just a shallow statement that, you know, as soon as it went out of the public's attention span that it would go away. So every two years, we actually run our own career report, we send out survey questions to our members. And we found that the gender diversity was pretty close to the industry, but still lagging. So that's around 35% women, and the rest were men. So because of that, we also found that our diversity in terms of minorities and representation, were actually lagging in the industry. So this was kind of a shock to us. And we thought, as a nonprofit, we're doing really well on this. And really, we took a strong look at ourselves. And what we did was we had an external audit of our organization for diversity and inclusion. And really, they had a number of things that we could change. So, you know, we noticed that when we did our survey, we had a binary gender collection, so it was male or female. So we're going to change that going forward. We noticed when we had speakers, were we considering the diversity of the speakers. So that was another thing for us to self reflect on. We have a book club, where we choose diverse authors and diverse types of topics to discuss, our website -where the picture is being shown that it shows diverse and inclusive crowds, the video content, and this was really interesting. We didn't have captions on our videos. So we were actually, you know, a bias against muted viewing and hearing impaired. So again, just simple things like this, targeting our reach and amplifying NAYGN's diverse communities as well. So from that we started creating an unconscious bias webinar series. We had chapter recognition so we have awards now specifically to recognize diversity and inclusion at the chapter level, we're changing our nomination process or elections. And we actually signed on to existing types of initiatives. So that equal by 30, and then through EHRC's leadership accords, and we signed an MOU with women and nuclear and National Society of Black Engineers we're working on as well.


Dan Seguin  15:22

Now, Matthew, are you seeing a shift in what nuclear professionals care about? What are some of today's challenges for nuclear technology professionals?


Matthew Mairinger  15:34

Yeah, so I'd say young nuclear professionals today, they care more about that work-life balance, and especially now with COVID, we've seen that you know, the work from home, and having more flexible hours, that's a big thing. If you're taking care of a family, you want that flexibility. And we also see that a lot of the young nuclear professionals really care about the impact to the community. So what is that company doing to give back to the community? Are they involved in community outreach events? Are they involved in supporting local types of initiatives? So really, that's what we're starting to see more of a focus for the young professionals is, you know, they really want the company to reflect their values they want to have that are part of their core mandates. And some of the challenges right now, I'd say are the energy uncertainty right now. So, you know, nuclear does require an investment from the government. So if Pickering nuclear is shutting down, that is the uncertain future is what is the long term Energy Outlook going to look like? Will there be a job for them? Is it worth studying in school? Because it takes a long time to license to do the environmental assessment. So that's kind of always on the top of people's minds. What does the government think of nuclear energy?


Dan Seguin  16:56

So I hear that you work at the Darlington Nuclear Generating Station in Ontario. Maybe now you can help me better understand why nuclear power plants, particularly Canada's, are considered among the safest and most secure facilities in the world. And can you talk to us a bit about plans for the refurbishment of existing plants and why it's so important?


Matthew Mairinger  17:26

Yeah, so I think it's, it's almost like an aircraft. When people get on an airplane, you know, they may hear of an accident and they think it's unsafe. But the most unsafe thing you do for air travel is driving to the airport. It's a human's ability to risk perceive. So Nuclear Generating stations are actually among the safest in the world. And we take that down to the lowest level. So when you go to the OPG sites, hold the handrails, there's a defensive driving type of computer based training that we take. And also after the Chernobyl accident, the World Association of Nuclear Operators was created. So they do external audits for safety all across the world. There's also insurance inspections. There's the United Nations inspections. So there's all these different groups doing independent reviews for safety. But safety is the number one priority. And we definitely see that reflected in the company culture. In terms of refurbishment. So Ontario began refurbishing 10 of its 18 power reactors in 2016. And refurbishment is expected to create over 30,000 jobs for the duration of the project. So just a huge amount of jobs being created. And if we look at the cost of nuclear, it averaged around 6.9 cents per kilowatt hour, which was 30%, below the provincial average. And after the refurbishment, we're looking at the cost of nuclear in 2015 speed eight cents a kilowatt hour. So Still, the second cheapest after hydro. So that's why it's so important. It has such a big contribution to getting to net zero to reducing emissions for providing well paying jobs and fighting the climate change that we need to have as a focus.


Dan Seguin  19:18

Matthew, all nuclear power reactors in Canada are candu reactors, correct? Okay. First, what does CANDU stand for? Second, I was made aware that several other countries use our technology. At a high level, what sets Canada's reactors apart?


Matthew Mairinger  19:40

Yeah, so we have 19 reactors here in Canada, 18 of them in Ontario, and all of them are the CANDU type reactors, so CANDU is actually an acronym for Canadian, deuterium, uranium. So that's what it actually stands for. What that means is, that's really how it So Canadian self explanatory, deuterium is heavy water. So instead of using light water, which is the normal water that everyone's used to, heavy water actually has an extra neutron in it, which is really good for slowing down neutrons to make a really efficient reactor. And really, that's what set ours apart from other types of reactors. So around the world, there's gas cooled reactors, there's light water graphite reactors, there's fast breeders, pressurized heavy water reactors, pressurized water reactors, boiling water reactors, so lots of different types of technologies that they use. Fundamentally, there are three big ones, pressurized water reactors, they pressurize the one side of the system, so that the water never boils, boiling water reactor, it just has one open system. So as soon as the water is heated up from passing over the reactor, it boils, it's all open to the same type of system. And the candu type of reactors, they're really different, because instead of enriching the fuel, we use natural uranium. But what we do is we use that heavy water as the moderator. So we actually spend some money upfront and change the water to this different type of properties, which is good at slowing down the neutrons, so then we don't have to enrich the fuel. So what this means is, we don't need enriched fuel. And then when we're done with our fuel, it's a much lower enrichment. So when we're having that spent fuel put away, it's a much lower radioactivity than if we had enriched that. So it's, it's really hard to say which one is better. They all have their pros and their cons. The good thing about the candu technology as it has two independent shutdown systems, because it uses your natural uranium, it is much safer to handle and to dispose of, we have a vacuum structure. So I quite like the Canadian technology, I think it's really good. We have a really good supply of uranium here in Canada. So it made sense for us to use that natural product rather than building enrichment facilities and going through those extra steps.


Dan Seguin  22:17

Now, there's still a myth that nuclear energy is not safe. Some associate nuclear bombs with nuclear reactors. I'm not sure if you watch the HBO series Chernobyl. But can you explain to the audience why an incident, like what occurred in the Soviet Union in 1986 is very unlikely to happen here. Perhaps you can also talk a bit about radiation.


Matthew Mairinger  22:48

Yeah. So I always just like to start off with a quote, this comes from the book A Bright Future. It says, "In thinking about nuclear power safety, one should always ask compared to what? And the answer is compared to coal, the world's dominant and fastest growing fuel, the leading cause of climate change, the fuel that kills a million people a year - compared to that." So I think we always have to ground ourselves in what we are actually comparing to. And if you look at the numbers, the best analysis for safety is called the death footprint. What it does is it compares coal, it compares oil and hydro, compares nuclear, solar and wind, to the worst case scenarios from Fukushima, Chernobyl. And it says how many people are actually dying from this energy source at the same amount of energy produced, so it puts it all on the same scale. And what it actually shows is that nuclear is orders of magnitude safer than coal and oil, because it doesn't produce pollution. So millions of people every year are dying from pollution from respiratory issues. And nuclear energy, for example, results in 99.8% fewer deaths than brown coal. So it is just so clean. And again, it's this people see a Chernobyl miniseries on HBO, it's you know, produced by Hollywood, they say a large number of people died, where people hear about it in the News, the news and everything else is to amplify the message. So it's trying to do this scare tactic to really, you know, show nuclear disaster in Japan, but no one really follows up on it. So it is amongst the safest. It produces no carbon dioxide, it doesn't produce mercury, and it doesn't produce all these harmful things that burning coal and gas does as well, and why it's very unlikely here compared to Chernobyl. So Chernobyl was a nuclear design that used graphite as a moderator. It had no containment structure. It was run during the, in the Soviet times during the Cold War, where they had no external agencies looking at it, they had political appointees in the control room, just almost everything wrong you could possibly imagine was done there. So, so now we have independent shutdown systems, we have containment structures, we have external agencies looking at the safety records. So there's just so much that has changed from that. And nuclear technology is so new people forget that, you know, it's only in the last 50-60 years that we learned about it. So there was obviously going to be some bumps in the road at the start. But you know, we've learned from that, especially these new designs, they're passively safe. They're inherently safe. So we've taken those lessons learned. And it's very, very, very unlikely here. So in terms of radiation,  one thing I just want to get right off the bat is, radiation is a form of heat transfer, there's conduction, there's convection, and then there's radiation. And radiation as a form of heat transfer is how we actually heat up the planet. So across the vacuum, radiation is the only way to transfer heat from the Sun to the Earth through space, which is a vacuum. Now, the electromagnetic spectrum, which includes x rays, gamma rays, but also radio waves, and microwaves and visible light that we see, we can only see a billionth of a billionth portion of that electromagnetic spectrum. And for non ionizing radiation, that ionization means that the radiation's energy can produce ions, which are charged atoms by knocking negatively charged electrons off of a neutral atom. So non ionizing radiation, there is no proven biological mechanism whereby non ionizing radiation might cause cancer. So those are the radio waves that we come in contact with. That's all the microwaves that we see out there. It's only when we come into the higher energy, which are the X rays, and the gamma rays, which are actually higher frequency waves, that they are considered ionizing radiation. So with that in mind, just want to say that, on average, we all receive around two to three millisieverts of radiation each year. And that varies considerably based on how high up you are, you'll get more radiation at higher altitudes, and also the environment that you live in. So for resonance in Ramsar, Iran, they can receive up to 260 millisieverts per year, which is around 100 times the global average, just due to naturally occurring radioactive elements around them. But there's actually no evidence of any adverse health effects in those areas. So this is always good to keep in mind that there's no just standard level of radiation that people are exposed to. And it also depends on how many medical treatments you have. So some of the chemotherapy or medical imaging can introduce quite a bit more radiation into different people, radio sensitivities. So really the best analysis is the ICRP estimates that around 200 millisieverts raises the risk of cancer (fatal cancer) by 1%. So that's always good to keep in mind when we hear all these numbers and we see the dose charts after Chernobyl or Fukushima, and sometimes people forget, but the baseline lifetime cancer risk for females is around 38%. And for males is around 45%. So there's actually quite a bit of cancer, regardless of radiation just from the cells dividing. But radiation actually has a lot of positive things that it does. So when we have food, we can actually bombard it with radiation. So gamma rays, and this doesn't make the food radioactive. It doesn't make it harmful, but it destroys the bacteria which can cause a lot of problems around the world which has a lot of health issues. We can sterilize medical equipment with this. With radiation, we can treat cancers, we can do medical imaging, we can look for defects and products that we produce. So radiation is all around us. There's radon in your basement, there's potassium 40 in your bananas in the soil, there's radiation, actually, coal burns, releases quite a bit of radiation as well because they're just burning natural elements from the ground. So you'll release thorium, you'll release uranium, release polonium, so actually the stack from coal actually releases around 100 times more radiation than the nuclear station. So being around that. So I think that's always key, as well as to compare the radiation to other things around us. But radiation has been around since the start of the universe. It's, it's, it's there forever. And we're still living with the products there as well. Hope that explained it,


Dan Seguin  30:18

Matthew, how has the pandemic changed the nuclear landscape for Canada. Did you need to pivot, whether in terms of production or operations?


Matthew Mairinger  30:31

COVID, has actually really opened people's eyes to risk. So you know, now every day you go to the grocery store, you're taking a slight risk. And it really shows that there's always risks in the world. And we just need to define what we're comfortable with. And nuclear has also really been a backbone here during COVID. Because we need the hospitals, we need our homes to be heated, we need the grocery stores, we need these fundamental sources of electricity. And we need to be assured that while everyone's running around scared about toilet paper, I saw no one panic about electricity, which was really important. So I think people are learning more that electricity needs to be stable. We don't want blackouts, blackouts cost lives. And that was something that I think people are starting to become aware of. We did need to change some of our outages, so across the nuclear sector for refurbishment and outages, they do have a large amount of contractors and other people coming together. So some of those were deferred a couple of months due to COVID. But other than that, we've had stable electricity being produced across North America and across the world, to nuclear.


Dan Seguin  31:47

Let's talk about the future and Canada's role in nuclear innovation. I know this is something your organization is part of. But can you talk to us a bit about small modular reactors? What are they? And what are their benefits?


Matthew Mairinger  32:06

So I think we saw in the nuclear sector a growing trend to get bigger and bigger and bigger. You know, we started out with very small reactors, and then they got to 1000 megawatts electric 1300-1400. Because as you get a bigger type of reactor, in terms of neutron efficiency, it does have some advantages. But what we saw then was, you know, the only countries that could start to build these were countries that had fully developed nations, they had a lot of government support. And really, we're starting to exclude some of the key sectors. So for example, in the mining communities, for remote communities, for developing nations, they couldn't have access to this. So what small modular reactors really are, are, they're smaller. So you know, we're looking at the order of 300 megawatts electric and smaller, all the way down to under one megawatt electric, which is very good for remote communities for mining communities as well. They're modular, so they're prefabricated in manufacturing. So instead of doing everything on site, you can almost do it through economies of scale, where you produce all the components together and then that reduces the cost as well. And that also allows countries or organizations to start with one type of module. And you know, if the community expands in size, they can add a second one, so it's a modular design that allows them to expand as they need to. And again, this is the new type of designs that they're doing. So they would put these in the communities, they can't melt down, you can't make weapons from them. So they're using the latest type of physics in these types of designs. So there's many different types of designs, but really, what they're doing is they're taking the latest learnings, the latest operating experience, just to make them the safest. The other advantage of small modular reactors as well as they operate at a much higher temperature. So now what you can do is you can use that waste heat, you can split water into hydrogen, so you could be producing hydrogen for the transportation sector, you could look at desalinization, you have all these other type of benefits, since they operate at a much higher temperature, and they could be placed within communities


Dan Seguin  34:32

Per the small modular roadmap, when do you expect the first ones to come online?


Matthew Mairinger  34:39

Yes, so the first demonstration unit is going to be cited at Chalk River by 2026. And the first on-grid small modular reactors are actually going to be built at the Darlington site as early as 2028. But again, small modular reactors really have been in existence since the start of nuclear. They've been in submarines. They've been in demonstration units. So I think some people are concerned that this is a new technology, but really, we've had them for quite a long time. But now they're getting focused. They're trying to do new designs. But we've already seen this in the nuclear sector since the early 50s.


Dan Seguin  35:21

Okay, Matthew, are you ready to close this off with some rapid fire questions?


Matthew Mairinger  35:27



Dan Seguin  35:28

Let's go with the first one. What is your favorite word?


Matthew Mairinger  35:32

Got to say, verbosity, it's just the quality of using more words than needed. wordiness I just think the word itself is so pretentious to describe pretentiousness, it's great.


Dan Seguin  35:45

What is one thing you can't live without?


Matthew Mairinger  35:48



Dan Seguin  35:49

What habit or hobby Have you picked up during shelter in place?


Matthew Mairinger  35:55

So with the gyms closed, I really got back into running. So I ran my first marathon during that. So opened up a positive trait, I guess.


Dan Seguin  36:03

If you could have one superpower, what would it be?


Matthew Mairinger  36:08

Oh, time travel for sure.


Dan Seguin  36:11

If you could turn back time and talk to your 18 year old self, what would you tell him?


Matthew Mairinger  36:17

I'd say to get more involved in nonprofit into these types of organizations through high school through university. They provide a lot of benefits. And I really wasn't aware of them until after I graduated.


Dan Seguin  36:30

And lastly, what do you currently find most interesting in your sector?


Matthew Mairinger  36:37

So I think it's really our impact on fighting climate change, fighting pollution, you know, we're still kind of the underdog out there. So we're still fighting to get recognized but lots of opportunities. And I really think it's going to be the sector that makes the difference.


Dan Seguin  36:53

Well, Matthew, we've reached the end of another episode of The ThinkEnergy podcast. Again, thank you so much for joining us today. And I hope you had a lot of fun.


Matthew Mairinger  37:03

Yeah, no, thanks for having me. And great to be part of this.


Dan Seguin  37:11

Thank you for joining us today. I truly hope you enjoyed this episode of The ThinkEnergy podcast. For past episodes, make sure you visit our website Lastly, if you found value in this podcast, be sure to subscribe. Anyway, this podcast is a wrap. Cheers, everyone.